This is actually several questions. Could a bastard marry in Westeros? And if a bastard could get married and have a legitimate child, what name would that child have? For example if *insert name here* Snow married someone and they had a child, would that child be a Snow even if they were a legitimate child?
I think a bastard could marry someone with a name and they would take that name from them. Thats one method. Another is just making up a new name, moving elsewhere in the kingdom and starting over without the stigma.
“I’m not a Lady, I’m a Wolf!” "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." The tormentor becomes the tormented. People become what they love and hate, because their mind focuses on it."
If Jon Snow married idk... Arienne Martell, he'd become Jon Martell, and all their children would be Martells.
If Jon Snow had say.. married Ygritte. Jon would still be Jon Snow, but all of their children could make a new name, often related to their bastard parent's surname, but not always to show they are true born. So Jon's and Ygritte's trueborn child could take a name like Snowborn, or fuck idk, you could go technical and call the children Cornice (A overhanging accumulation of ice and wind-blown show, such as might be found on a cliff face) or...Hoarfrost. (https://www.farmersalmanac.com/how-many-words-snow-16650 theres like 40 names for types of snow dude)
Some bastards take names of their own once legitimized (Blackfyre being a famous example) and while I know there have been trueborn children of bastards who have made their own name, I cant think of any off the top of my head.
The important thing to remember with bastards is that its only bastards of nobles - and only acknowledge bastards of nobles that get a bastard surname. As common folk do not have surnames. (Example; Gendry; while we as a fandom call him Gendry Waters because we know hes Robert's bastard actually isnt called Gendry Waters at all. But his two living siblings in the books. Mya and Edric have surnames - Stone and Storm respectively- as they were acknowledge by their father Robert)
If Jon Snow married idk... Arienne Martell, he'd become Jon Martell, and all their children would be Martells.
If Jon Snow had say.. married Ygritte. Jon would still be Jon Snow, but all of their children could make a new name, often related to their bastard parent's surname, but not always to show they are true born. So Jon's and Ygritte's trueborn child could take a name like Snowborn, or fuck idk, you could go technical and call the children Cornice (A overhanging accumulation of ice and wind-blown show, such as might be found on a cliff face) or...Hoarfrost. (https://www.farmersalmanac.com/how-many-words-snow-16650 theres like 40 names for types of snow dude)
Some bastards take names of their own once legitimized (Blackfyre being a famous example) and while I know there have been trueborn children of bastards who have made their own name, I cant think of any off the top of my head.
The important thing to remember with bastards is that its only bastards of nobles - and only acknowledge bastards of nobles that get a bastard surname. As common folk do not have surnames. (Example; Gendry; while we as a fandom call him Gendry Waters because we know hes Robert's bastard actually isnt called Gendry Waters at all. But his two living siblings in the books. Mya and Edric have surnames - Stone and Storm respectively- as they were acknowledge by their father Robert)
Thank you! That was informstive. I don’t know why I was thinking about it. So if Ramsay hadn’t been legitimized and he married sansa would he then be Ramsay Stark?
I think a bastard could marry someone with a name and they would take that name from them. Thats one method. Another is just making up a new name, moving elsewhere in the kingdom and starting over without the stigma.
The first of those seems the simplest option. I also hadn’t considered the difference with nobles that Revanstar pointed out. Thanks for answering!
Now I’m imagining two bastard Snows marrying and making their own names and future houses
If Jon Snow married idk... Arienne Martell, he'd become Jon Martell, and all their children would be Martells.
If Jon Snow had say.. married Ygritte. Jon would still be Jon Snow, but all of their children could make a new name, often related to their bastard parent's surname, but not always to show they are true born. So Jon's and Ygritte's trueborn child could take a name like Snowborn, or fuck idk, you could go technical and call the children Cornice (A overhanging accumulation of ice and wind-blown show, such as might be found on a cliff face) or...Hoarfrost. (https://www.farmersalmanac.com/how-many-words-snow-16650 theres like 40 names for types of snow dude)
Some bastards take names of their own once legitimized (Blackfyre being a famous example) and while I know there have been trueborn children of bastards who have made their own name, I cant think of any off the top of my head.
The important thing to remember with bastards is that its only bastards of nobles - and only acknowledge bastards of nobles that get a bastard surname. As common folk do not have surnames. (Example; Gendry; while we as a fandom call him Gendry Waters because we know hes Robert's bastard actually isnt called Gendry Waters at all. But his two living siblings in the books. Mya and Edric have surnames - Stone and Storm respectively- as they were acknowledge by their father Robert)
Thank you! That was informstive. I don’t know why I was thinking about it. So if Ramsay hadn’t been legitimized and he married sansa would he then be Ramsay Stark?
Yes. Although, technically Ramsay should have been Ramsay Stark anyways since Sansa is of higher social standings and birth even if he had been trueborn, inaddition to being the trueborn heir of a greathouse / rightful queen of the north, andhe was marring into her blood line, not the other way around.
It would be like a member of House Dayne marrying Arianne Martell. Arianne wouldnt become a Dayne, her husband would become a Martell, because she is of higher standing, and the heir to Dorne. Where the Dayne's are a lesser noble house.
Dorne really is the only example in westeros of how marrying a female ruler of a great house is supposed to work, since usually eldest daughters are married off to eldest or second sons of other houses, or if their husbands come with little, they, and their new husbands are gifted lands and an holdfast and basically form a cadet branch - Which is what would have likely happened to Arya, she would have ended up married to a second or third son of a lesser house, or even a knight of some sort and her father would have granted lands and a hold fast to her and her new husband.
I think a bastard could marry someone with a name and they would take that name from them. Thats one method. Another is just making up a new name, moving elsewhere in the kingdom and starting over without the stigma.
The first of those seems the simplest option. I also hadn’t considered the difference with nobles that Revanstar pointed out. Thanks for answering!
Now I’m imagining two bastard Snows marrying and making their own names and future houses
Ahh... Surnames are things of nobility, not smallfolk. So unless one of the Snows was knighted and/or granted lands / title - becoming a Landed Knight, and thus a type of minor nobility, they would forever be a Snow, baring being legitimized by the King (Or Queen)
Thank you! That was informstive. I don’t know why I was thinking about it. So if Ramsay hadn’t been legitimized and he married sansa would he then be Ramsay Stark?
Yes. Although, technically Ramsay should have been Ramsay Stark anyways since Sansa is of higher social standings and birth even if he had been trueborn, inaddition to being the trueborn heir of a greathouse / rightful queen of the north, andhe was marring into her blood line, not the other way around.
It would be like a member of House Dayne marrying Arianne Martell. Arianne wouldnt become a Dayne, her husband would become a Martell, because she is of higher standing, and the heir to Dorne. Where the Dayne's are a lesser noble house.
Dorne really is the only example in westeros of how marrying a female ruler of a great house is supposed to work, since usually eldest daughters are married off to eldest or second sons of other houses, or if their husbands come with little, they, and their new husbands are gifted lands and an holdfast and basically form a cadet branch - Which is what would have likely happened to Arya, she would have ended up married to a second or third son of a lesser house, or even a knight of some sort and her father would have granted lands and a hold fast to her and her new husband.
“Ramsay Stark” is a perversion if I’ve ever seen one 😒 the names belong nowhere near each other
Also while we’re talking about bastards I have another question. And before I ask I point out my ignorance to canon. But why wouldn’t Ned tell Catelyn the truth about Jon? Like why let her think that? He didn’t have to tell anyone but it seems he could have told her. Am I missing something?
Also while we’re talking about bastards I have another question. And before I ask I point out my ignorance to canon. But why wouldn’t Ned tell Catelyn the truth about Jon? Like why let her think that? He didn’t have to tell anyone but it seems he could have told her. Am I missing something?
Ah... I think we can toss this one up as "The Less people that know the better" as a short answer.
Long answer is, Ned likely did it to protect his wife and children. If Jon's true parentage was ever discovered, then ideally only he'd take the fall for it since no one else, not even Jon himself knew. You also have to take into consideration that when Ned brought home Jon, the last time Ned had seen Catelyn was when they had married, - he had married a woman he didnt know, whom he didnt love, and one that was supposed to be his brother's wife. Ned chose his promise to his dead younger sister, over honesty with his new wife whom was a stranger to him.
In addition to that, as coldly logical as this is and would have been for a painfully honorable man like Ned. Catelyn's treatment of Jon, being as it was, helped sell the idea that Jon was his bastard. Even after Ned had come to love, trust and respect Catelyn, telling her would have changed the way she viewed and treated Jon. and after years of her scorn, such a change would have been noteworthy and would have sent tongues wagging.
Mind you, this is all speculation and guess work based upon what we know of Ned's character and personality. - I think Ned never ever intended to tell Jon, or anyone the truth. He intended to take the secret to his grave. Because the truth would have sparked a war of succession, or at the very least a civil war, with his family caught in the middle. - Robert, had he known, would have marched on the North to kill the "Dragon Spawn" - a young man he would have seen as the child of rape, and the cause of "his" Lyanna's death, directing all his rage at Rheager and the Targaryens on Jon.
And those who were unhappy with Robert's rule, would have seen Jon as a chance to rebell.
Again, all speculation and guess work, but educated guess work.
Also while we’re talking about bastards I have another question. And before I ask I point out my ignorance to canon. But why wouldn’t Ned tell Catelyn the truth about Jon? Like why let her think that? He didn’t have to tell anyone but it seems he could have told her. Am I missing something?
Ah... I think we can toss this one up as "The Less people that know the better" as a short answer.
Long answer is, Ned likely did it to protect his wife and children. If Jon's true parentage was ever discovered, then ideally only he'd take the fall for it since no one else, not even Jon himself knew. You also have to take into consideration that when Ned brought home Jon, the last time Ned had seen Catelyn was when they had married, - he had married a woman he didnt know, whom he didnt love, and one that was supposed to be his brother's wife. Ned chose his promise to his dead younger sister, over honesty with his new wife whom was a stranger to him.
In addition to that, as coldly logical as this is and would have been for a painfully honorable man like Ned. Catelyn's treatment of Jon, being as it was, helped sell the idea that Jon was his bastard. Even after Ned had come to love, trust and respect Catelyn, telling her would have changed the way she viewed and treated Jon. and after years of her scorn, such a change would have been noteworthy and would have sent tongues wagging.
Mind you, this is all speculation and guess work based upon what we know of Ned's character and personality. - I think Ned never ever intended to tell Jon, or anyone the truth. He intended to take the secret to his grave. Because the truth would have sparked a war of succession, or at the very least a civil war, with his family caught in the middle. - Robert, had he known, would have marched on the North to kill the "Dragon Spawn" - a young man he would have seen as the child of rape, and the cause of "his" Lyanna's death, directing all his rage at Rheager and the Targaryens on Jon.
And those who were unhappy with Robert's rule, would have seen Jon as a chance to rebell.
Again, all speculation and guess work, but educated guess work.
Them having been married for a short time does make sense. It also makes sense that once it’s been hidden for so long, there doesn’t seem much point to telling the truth. Other than to spare her feelings since she was so obviously bothered by it
I think a bastard could marry someone with a name and they would take that name from them. Thats one method. Another is just making up a new name, moving elsewhere in the kingdom and starting over without the stigma.
I've never understood why they didn't do this already (moving to somewhere else). I guess for this type of time period, only the higher up classes would be able to afford to move from where they are currently at. For bastards of higher lords, I'm assuming that their looks would indicate that they are bastards of a lord even if they took a new name.
I think a bastard could marry someone with a name and they would take that name from them. Thats one method. Another is just making up a new name, moving elsewhere in the kingdom and starting over without the stigma.
I've never understood why they didn't do this already (moving to somewhere else). I guess for this type of time period, only the higher up classes would be able to afford to move from where they are currently at. For bastards of higher lords, I'm assuming that their looks would indicate that they are bastards of a lord even if they took a new name.
For the big families yah there would be some serious genetic looks.
“I’m not a Lady, I’m a Wolf!” "He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." The tormentor becomes the tormented. People become what they love and hate, because their mind focuses on it."
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