Post by revanstar on Aug 3, 2017 23:05:09 GMT
We've all seen it. The hundreds if not thousands of posts and "thories" and other bullshit that claims Jon Snow is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Posts that have only gotten worse since the whole R+L=J "reveal" [lol, for the slow kids in the back who only watch the show maybe]
Brace yourselves friends for another one of Revan's Rants as I take a look at the Bastards of the Iron Throne.
To start with, in the ASOIAF/GOT World, (acknowledged) bastards of noble blood take on a surname the region they were born in.
Flowers = Reach
Hill = Westerlands
Pyke = Iron Islands
Rivers = Riverlands
Sand = Dorne
Snow = North
Stone = Vale
Storm = Stormlands
Waters = Crownlands.
Common born bastards, those without nobel or royal blood do not take surnames based upon the region in which they are born. They dont take on surnames at all. And unacknowledged bastards of noble/royal birth also do not take on these bastard surnames.
Gendry, the eldest living bastard of Robert Baratheon canon doesnt bare the surname of Waters because he is unacknowledged by his father and didnt even know that the then King was his father until after Robert's death. In contrast to his half siblings. Mya Stone, who is likely Robert's eldest child. And Edric Storm.
However;
Because of this naming practice, Jon, would actually technically be Jon Sand. As he was born at the Tower of Joy which is located within Dorne. But I guess GRRM thought Jon Snow sounded better.
Acknowledged bastards can be legitimized by a King, though the practice is rare, and usually only done in cases where there are no trueborn heirs to a noble house (or rather, trueborn male heirs, as in the case of most patriarical societies, even bastard sons are to be valued higher then trueborn daughters.)
Revan, I already knew all this.
Hush summer child, cause I'm about to rock your world.
So what does all this mean regarding the Iron Throne.
Well, lines of succession, work alot like lines of Next of Kin in our modern world. For simplicity sakes, the line of next of kin is as follows.
You >Spouse > Children > Parent > Sibling > Nephew/Niece > Aunts/Uncles > First Cousins and on down the line (Mind, this is a SIMPLIFIED Line of Next of Kin)
Line of Succession roughly follows You > Children > Sibling > Nephew/Niece > Aunts/Uncles > First Cousins
Remember how I mentioned Robert's bastards, and remember how Joffery and/or Cersei had all of Robert's bastards hunted down and slaughtered waaay back when? Keep that in mind. Cause I'm about to point out how fucking idiotic Robert's brothers both were.
Once the cat was out of the bag that Cersei's children were bastard lions and not trueborn stags. (lol, cat out of the bag, get it?) Both Stannis and Renly both named themselves as the rightful King given that Robert had no true born heir. Which, by line of succession, Stannis would have been rightful king. But no one liked Stannis.
Renly, who was the youngest of the Baratheon brothers should have done was legitimized Edric Storm, Robert's young, acknowledged, bastard son, and instead named themselves as King-Regent until Edric Storm/Baratheon came of age. Since Edric Storm was at Stormsend, and who was lord of Stormsend? Renly. Once Legitimized, Edric's claim would have been greater then Stannis' and Renly would have ruled through Edric for many years until the boy came of age, cause while it would have pissed Stannis the fuck off, he would have bent the knee to his nephew because if Stannis was anything, he was dutiful to the letter.
But Renly didnt do that. Because Renly was an idiot.
Then theres Gendry, who is older then Edric, but unlike Edric he wasnt an acknowledged bastard. Hell he didnt even know that Robert was his father until Melisandre told him. (Although really, two hands of the king comes to see your ass shortly before they are killed, and then when robert's bastards are being murdered, both Royal and Kings guards are hunting you, and you still dont fucking wonder? idiot)
Stannis now had Gendry, who he knew was Robert's bastard, and one who is older then Edric in his grasp. But like Renly, Stannis is an idiot. And instead of legitimizing the batard blacksmith, and naming himself Regent, he lets his Red Witch use his blood in a dark ritual and then lets the boy get away.
Gendry being unacknowledged however would have been questioned by the other noble houses, regardless of how much the young man looked like his late father. So it might not have worked anyways cause Stannis would have had no proof beyond his word.
I mentioned Mya Stone. Mya is, as far as we know, Robert's eldest child, having sired her years before the Rebellion. However, in the show she doesnt exist, and in the books shes not really mentioned a whole lot. And unlike both her living half brothers she never comes into the hands of a 'King' to be legitimized. And in the land of Westeros, said brothers would come before her anyways, much like Tommen came before his older sister. (No surprise there, men are always coming before women)
Why didnt either Renly or Stannis legitimize one of Robert's bastards sons you might be wondering? Well, beyond the fact that they are idiots. Renly was a bit of a narcissistic egomaniac who really loved then attention of the people. - Think of that semi attractive popular jock in school who got all the girls and was both a bit of an ass, and a show boat? Yeah.. that was Renly. - Stannis on the other hand.. let Melisandre get into his head, and honestly I think he went a bit power crazed there in the end being this so called 'Prince who was Promised. Prophised Hero, ect ect". In both cases, both men knew that by legitimizing either of Robert's living bastard sons, acknowledged or not, those sons would have a better claim to the throne then they themselves had as Robert's brothers.
Okay Revan, thats really interesting but what does Robert's bastards have to do with Jon and Dany?
I'm getting to that.
Jon fucking Snow.
All of the people screaming about how Jon has a better claim, and/or is the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.. are.. technically correct under the assumption that Rheager married Lyanna in some sort of secret wedding. As Rheager's children would come before his siblings in the line of succession.
But that works under the assumption that Rheager of Lyanna had a secret wedding, making Jon trueborn, instead of baseborn. (Since bastards can only inheirate their father's lands and titles if they are legitimized)
However, even if Rheager and Lyanna were married, there is no proof. All of Rheager's personal king's guard, who would have likely been the only witnesses to such a union were killed at the Tower of Joy. Outside of those few men there would have been very few Rheager might have told. one of which would have been Maester Aemon. But he too, is dead.
More then that, with the death of Eddard Stark, the only living person that we know of, who would know of Jon's true bloodline, is Howland Reed, who was there at the Tower of Joy, with Eddard. - Yes, Bran knows the truth because Three Eye Raven. But lets be real, no one is going to believe Bran so he doesnt count.
True born or based born, there is exactly zero evidence beyond one living witness that Jon is the son of Rheager and Lyanna.
With no proof, Jon had no claim.
In addition to this. In the show, and maybe even the books. Robb Stark, while King in the North, may have legitimized Jon Snow as Jon Stark. And possibly named him his Heir. Which does make Jon the rightful King in the North (gag me) over his trueborn half 'siblings' as he is older.
However, is not made clear if any of the Northern Lords actually knows that Robb Stark legitimized Jon and name him his heir.
Regardless, Jon, was legitimized as Jon Stark. the son of Eddard Stark. I think that may actually over rule his zero proof Targaryen bloodline. and any possible claim of the Iron Throne. But I cant find or think of any real world example of a bastard being adopted by, and then legitimized as the son of an Uncle.
Which means, by line of succession, Dany is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne as there are no Trueborn, or acknowledged and legitimized baseborn sons/daughters of Rheager who can prove their lineage.
In closing.
Fuck your farmboy trope you lustful bitches who have only ever seen the show cause Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen, first of her name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Princess of Dragon Stone, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Protector of the Realm. Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains is the rightful ruler of Westeros and heir of the Iron Throne.
-mic drop-
Brace yourselves friends for another one of Revan's Rants as I take a look at the Bastards of the Iron Throne.
To start with, in the ASOIAF/GOT World, (acknowledged) bastards of noble blood take on a surname the region they were born in.
Flowers = Reach
Hill = Westerlands
Pyke = Iron Islands
Rivers = Riverlands
Sand = Dorne
Snow = North
Stone = Vale
Storm = Stormlands
Waters = Crownlands.
Common born bastards, those without nobel or royal blood do not take surnames based upon the region in which they are born. They dont take on surnames at all. And unacknowledged bastards of noble/royal birth also do not take on these bastard surnames.
Gendry, the eldest living bastard of Robert Baratheon canon doesnt bare the surname of Waters because he is unacknowledged by his father and didnt even know that the then King was his father until after Robert's death. In contrast to his half siblings. Mya Stone, who is likely Robert's eldest child. And Edric Storm.
However;
Because of this naming practice, Jon, would actually technically be Jon Sand. As he was born at the Tower of Joy which is located within Dorne. But I guess GRRM thought Jon Snow sounded better.
Acknowledged bastards can be legitimized by a King, though the practice is rare, and usually only done in cases where there are no trueborn heirs to a noble house (or rather, trueborn male heirs, as in the case of most patriarical societies, even bastard sons are to be valued higher then trueborn daughters.)
Revan, I already knew all this.
Hush summer child, cause I'm about to rock your world.
So what does all this mean regarding the Iron Throne.
Well, lines of succession, work alot like lines of Next of Kin in our modern world. For simplicity sakes, the line of next of kin is as follows.
You >Spouse > Children > Parent > Sibling > Nephew/Niece > Aunts/Uncles > First Cousins and on down the line (Mind, this is a SIMPLIFIED Line of Next of Kin)
Line of Succession roughly follows You > Children > Sibling > Nephew/Niece > Aunts/Uncles > First Cousins
Remember how I mentioned Robert's bastards, and remember how Joffery and/or Cersei had all of Robert's bastards hunted down and slaughtered waaay back when? Keep that in mind. Cause I'm about to point out how fucking idiotic Robert's brothers both were.
Once the cat was out of the bag that Cersei's children were bastard lions and not trueborn stags. (lol, cat out of the bag, get it?) Both Stannis and Renly both named themselves as the rightful King given that Robert had no true born heir. Which, by line of succession, Stannis would have been rightful king. But no one liked Stannis.
Renly, who was the youngest of the Baratheon brothers should have done was legitimized Edric Storm, Robert's young, acknowledged, bastard son, and instead named themselves as King-Regent until Edric Storm/Baratheon came of age. Since Edric Storm was at Stormsend, and who was lord of Stormsend? Renly. Once Legitimized, Edric's claim would have been greater then Stannis' and Renly would have ruled through Edric for many years until the boy came of age, cause while it would have pissed Stannis the fuck off, he would have bent the knee to his nephew because if Stannis was anything, he was dutiful to the letter.
But Renly didnt do that. Because Renly was an idiot.
Then theres Gendry, who is older then Edric, but unlike Edric he wasnt an acknowledged bastard. Hell he didnt even know that Robert was his father until Melisandre told him. (Although really, two hands of the king comes to see your ass shortly before they are killed, and then when robert's bastards are being murdered, both Royal and Kings guards are hunting you, and you still dont fucking wonder? idiot)
Stannis now had Gendry, who he knew was Robert's bastard, and one who is older then Edric in his grasp. But like Renly, Stannis is an idiot. And instead of legitimizing the batard blacksmith, and naming himself Regent, he lets his Red Witch use his blood in a dark ritual and then lets the boy get away.
Gendry being unacknowledged however would have been questioned by the other noble houses, regardless of how much the young man looked like his late father. So it might not have worked anyways cause Stannis would have had no proof beyond his word.
I mentioned Mya Stone. Mya is, as far as we know, Robert's eldest child, having sired her years before the Rebellion. However, in the show she doesnt exist, and in the books shes not really mentioned a whole lot. And unlike both her living half brothers she never comes into the hands of a 'King' to be legitimized. And in the land of Westeros, said brothers would come before her anyways, much like Tommen came before his older sister. (No surprise there, men are always coming before women)
Why didnt either Renly or Stannis legitimize one of Robert's bastards sons you might be wondering? Well, beyond the fact that they are idiots. Renly was a bit of a narcissistic egomaniac who really loved then attention of the people. - Think of that semi attractive popular jock in school who got all the girls and was both a bit of an ass, and a show boat? Yeah.. that was Renly. - Stannis on the other hand.. let Melisandre get into his head, and honestly I think he went a bit power crazed there in the end being this so called 'Prince who was Promised. Prophised Hero, ect ect". In both cases, both men knew that by legitimizing either of Robert's living bastard sons, acknowledged or not, those sons would have a better claim to the throne then they themselves had as Robert's brothers.
Okay Revan, thats really interesting but what does Robert's bastards have to do with Jon and Dany?
I'm getting to that.
Jon fucking Snow.
All of the people screaming about how Jon has a better claim, and/or is the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.. are.. technically correct under the assumption that Rheager married Lyanna in some sort of secret wedding. As Rheager's children would come before his siblings in the line of succession.
But that works under the assumption that Rheager of Lyanna had a secret wedding, making Jon trueborn, instead of baseborn. (Since bastards can only inheirate their father's lands and titles if they are legitimized)
However, even if Rheager and Lyanna were married, there is no proof. All of Rheager's personal king's guard, who would have likely been the only witnesses to such a union were killed at the Tower of Joy. Outside of those few men there would have been very few Rheager might have told. one of which would have been Maester Aemon. But he too, is dead.
More then that, with the death of Eddard Stark, the only living person that we know of, who would know of Jon's true bloodline, is Howland Reed, who was there at the Tower of Joy, with Eddard. - Yes, Bran knows the truth because Three Eye Raven. But lets be real, no one is going to believe Bran so he doesnt count.
True born or based born, there is exactly zero evidence beyond one living witness that Jon is the son of Rheager and Lyanna.
With no proof, Jon had no claim.
In addition to this. In the show, and maybe even the books. Robb Stark, while King in the North, may have legitimized Jon Snow as Jon Stark. And possibly named him his Heir. Which does make Jon the rightful King in the North (gag me) over his trueborn half 'siblings' as he is older.
However, is not made clear if any of the Northern Lords actually knows that Robb Stark legitimized Jon and name him his heir.
Regardless, Jon, was legitimized as Jon Stark. the son of Eddard Stark. I think that may actually over rule his zero proof Targaryen bloodline. and any possible claim of the Iron Throne. But I cant find or think of any real world example of a bastard being adopted by, and then legitimized as the son of an Uncle.
Which means, by line of succession, Dany is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne as there are no Trueborn, or acknowledged and legitimized baseborn sons/daughters of Rheager who can prove their lineage.
In closing.
Fuck your farmboy trope you lustful bitches who have only ever seen the show cause Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen, first of her name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Princess of Dragon Stone, Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Protector of the Realm. Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, The Unburnt, Mother of Dragons and Breaker of Chains is the rightful ruler of Westeros and heir of the Iron Throne.
-mic drop-
